Linguistic Dialog With Sultan Ratrout

Linguistic Dialog With Sultan Ratrout

I was going to post here on a philosophic and linguistic issue on free speech, and freedom of religion, involving real and virtual symbols such as the issue of burning sacred books. This was in the context of the question of a universal grammar or the Whorf hypothesis if words color our perception and evolution and if they in a sense actually hurt us and so on... but I hope this is interesting so I post the dialog here as best as I could copy it.

Today, Lubos discusses that string theory involving six dimensions and so on, heterotic (250 + dimensions?) and it seems to me similiar to those structures I have been talking about only I am not caught up in the abstraction of infinite groups and the infitesimal calculus but rather the finite principles of it. I imagine also that Hawking using M-theory as an example of the idea of no unique theory of everything would be and is appealing to Lubos for the sake of the appeal to string theories- even if I feel that Hawking is not up to date on the theories and philosophy beneath them. A friend of my enemies is my friend? hmmmmmmm

* * *
Linguistic Dialog With Sultan Ratrout

1:04pmSultan
u know what? I came to this conclusion:- promoting evil is worse than committing it
1:04pmMe
I will have to think about that concept
1:05pmSultan
promoting prejudice or dislike is worse than committing prejudice or dislike because that helps in dissemination of the concept of prejudice ...etc
e.g burning the quran campaign
1:05pmMe
I had such a complex thought this morning
involving the same subject from a linguistic viewpoint
1:06pmSultan
I want ask something
1:06pmMe
I noticed Jordan had the most hits on your like post against it
1:06pmSultan
the USA is known for good thinkers , educated people and tolerance. where are they now in the case of burning the quran campaign?
1:07pmMe
but as far as I know most officials are against that minor preachers campeign even the southern baptists
Still, these issues of freedom of religion and free speech are tricky philosophically
1:07pmSultan
we MUST stop it, not because iam a muslim , but because it is against humanity as a whole
1:08pmMe
ok my thought might be an answer or the take on the issue
1:08pmSultan
if i were a Christian, and If I witness an event like that, I would prefer to convert to Islam rather than be mute and not do anything.
1:09pmMe
first, perhaps there are stupid people inthe world after all- but usualy I think people basically good natured so this notion is new to me
1:09pmSultan
I have many american friends who like u objected to this campaign
1:09pmMe
linguistically and scientifically then:\
the affront of the burning of anything
really a from of showing disrespect and of dislike for whatever reason
here is my question
Are we burning that is silencing the words themselves or symbolically on paper? we cannot burn the virtual words
so it comes down to
1:11pmSultan
i will answer you
the answer is this
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fitna_(word)
committing fitna is worse than killing people
1:11pmMe
do words hurt as they change us or is there a universal grammar of words
1:11pmSultan
this is the same idea that i came to this evening
symoblically
sultan
of course there is universal grammar of words
after all we are all human beings, and langauge is a human product as chomsky says
plz have a look at the wiki link
1:13pmMe
the catalyst for life and human thought is metal
looked at the link and the depth the ideas will take awhile- over my head
1:14pmSultan
how do u translate Fitna into english?
choas is teh closest one
1:14pmMe
words and idea do change us
1:14pmSultan
yes they do change us
1:14pmMe
chaos entropy decoherence self-deception
and freedom to evolve for good or ill\
perhaps
or ideas the thoughts evoke
1:15pmSultan
for this reason, knowledge of linguistics is a must to a philosopher
1:15pmMe
words do not necessarily have to change us
1:15pmSultan
right but after all words represent a thought
whorf hypothesis is partially right
though it received some objections
1:16pmMe
in the article a difficulty is the linguistic difference from my lack of the local history
so the cold truth is
in the desire to control knowling and the course of evolving the agenda
1:16pmSultan
Why is Obama silent?
1:17pmMe
that final metal is that evolution is determined by lead that is bullets
I think Obama was not silent on this
but
it is election time and he is behind
1:17pmSultan
thats why one is not permitted to use specific words to indicate control of knowledge
1:17pmMe
and there are those who want to reshape the world and the mid east
1:18pmSultan
It is not because he is a muslim, its because that issue will worsen the relation between muslims and non-muslims
The west has fallen in a trap
the trap of worsening the relations with muslims
1:18pmMe
even Petraus said it would make things difficult for troops in afghanistat
well , we know the jokers in the deck
in the end we as humans are imperfect
1:19pmSultan
If the USA hadnt occupied Iraq, Ben-ladenism would havent spread to the region strongly
there is no use of being in Afghanistan
1:20pmMe
so why did we promote him and supply weapons? idiots in this world
1:20pmSultan
I'll give u a simple explantion , its related to our discussion
1:20pmMe
but we are not having just a scientific and linguistic discussion...
1:20pmSultan
you can eradicate humans but u cant eradicate their thought
1:21pmMe
that is the way God made us
1:21pmSultan
terrorism , prejudice and the like are abstract things that cant be eradicated if we assume they are to be concrete
dealing with abstract things differ from dealing with concrete things
1:22pmMe
in the end in dispute between neighbors say if a little girl is lost in the woods, black or white we stand together for the search and put aside minor differences
1:22pmSultan
exactly
1:22pmMe
does dealing with the abstract things correspond to symbolic speech or innate concrete speach? my original question?
1:23pmSultan
symbolic
1:23pmMe
we should not think we are responsible for the thoughts of others
the Johana complex
1:23pmSultan
yes
I taught this last semester
http://www.atida.org/forums/showthread.php?t=6527
man as a symbol maker,
with words we create symbols
1:24pmMe
but hasnt war always been something that takes a life of its own until exhaustion to last man and in cases like the us civil war a period of spirituality follows
1:25pmSultan
yes it has
I also came to this conclusion :- Modern humans are much more savage than ancient ones
1:25pmMe
interesting link to philosophy thinking
1:26pmSultan
look at countries when they are involved in wars
too savage
is this the first time you read this artile?
1:26pmMe
perhps we are more distant ethically because it is not a conflict man to man but machine to city
yes first time
1:26pmSultan
yes
lool ) how that important article escaped ya: P)))
1:27pmMe
hmmmm is it on philosophy chat or facebook?
1:27pmSultan
iam not sure
wait
1:28pmMe
for a second I thought you wrote it
brb
1:28pmSultan
loool
:)
i am not the author :)
1:30pmMe
again, man in his pereptions as symbolic c an override his survival and he is victiim to response- pehaps set up so to respond- with his emotions
such emotions as religion are among the deepest evidently of modern hujmans
Santaya said that the symbols endure above all things in the tradtion and language- but few symbols can last ten thousand years
1:33pmSultan
ic
1:33pmMe
....I came on perhaps to post some of these thoughts, linguistics, on my pesla blogspot but again we bring it up here- perhaps I should post our dialog?
Sultan why not?
Me
It will probably peeve off some physicists being it is year 5700 or so for them
The question comes down to keeping our cool and what you and I can do to make our homelands and world a better place :-)
1:35pmSultan
yes thats what we need
he who wants to worsen the image of his homeland must be stopped :))
Me
Or laughed at- humor again- but we do not have to feel sorry for them they know not what they do...
Man... this intense
1:39pmSultan
hhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
1:39pmMe
let us think about it- if we are aware we ourselves promote evil or not - let us hope not for it reflects on ourselves
1:39pmSultan
:)
Sultan
:)
so u agree with me as regards my conclusion :)
1:41pmMe
I am not worthy or smart enough yet to make that judgement on the assertion
but I feeel I know your heart :-)
1:42pmSultan
i need to amend my conclusion hahaha by adding this
if you can change the provocative situationr and do nothing, then you are the worst of all :))))))))
worst of the promoter and the committer of evil :)
1:43pmMe
"Fight and subdue those who persist in aggression until persecution (fitnah) is no more, and absolute freedom of religion is established."
1:43pmSultan
:)))
1:44pmMe
Jesus said he came with a sword and would rather we be hot or cold instead of luke warm
and confucious? may be live in interesting times
An enemy of my enemy is my friend?
1:46pmSultan
u know what is complicating the issue
1:46pmMe
please if you know
1:46pmSultan
friday will be the first days of Eid Alfitir
so 11/9 will be the second day
its a holy holiday for muslims
so that will provoke them more
a friend of my enemy is my enemy :)
1:49pmSultan
would an american accept the truth that the biggest country in the world, the usa, is controlled by the tinniest country in the world, israel?
Me
thanks for the heads up on the holidays
From my favorite linguistics book, Loom of Language humanism really:
"How odd of God to choose the Jews"



hahhaah
1:49pmMe
well. let us take a break and peace to you
1:49pmSultan
God gave the jews many chances but they didnt obey him
:)
* * *

At this point the conversation turned to a link in the sultan's project of humor on the ten commandments for facebook- but he supplied a link and said others posted on this subject first.

The old question if the West had people there (apparently evil because they saw and did nothing- consider the movie the Nuremberg Trials) why with such culture and enlightment was there such violent and uncivilized times? What after all does it take for enlightenment if that is possible in our natures- and virtual or concrete as a matter of language and words in our small double planet where it intimately matters, we but a speck in the wide sky, will by words and thoughts we go way beyond all this- that notions, perhaps deeper than current religious tradition or our faith in science, change what we are this day- and hopefully for the better?

If M-theory is so vaguely spaghetti like in cosmic realtivism- can any such theory significantly change the fickleness and illogic of the human heart? Lubos has this provacative (word) title for a recent post:

Is Stephen Hawking more Taliban-like than Susan Greenfield?

Note Lubos stands up for Hawking here, but I added this comment:
Although this is just reporting and a show of respect for the popular scientist, and other than the fact that M theory is said to show there is no theory of everything... there is certainly a trait in some scientists that they act as if their way was the only belief for a theory of the universe. And as such they perhaps deserve the title of Taliban- not as a blind and personal end of knowledge (always a bad position for science) but as "students" who act as if they were the teachers!

ThePeSla

After all, from the standpoint of Descartes who shunned the ideas of a total empty vacuum thus his grid had only zero- "Science was the Second Philosophy"